Question: When did DCI switch from "G" Bugles?

Post by Jazzycat1
OK - I have lived the better part of my adult life overseas and somehow
missed when the change was made to today's more traditional trumpets,
tuba's etc... When did this take place? And - Why?
Thanks,

When you were overseas, when it suddenly got really quiet... THAT's
when the switch was made to Bbs. ;-)

Jackie

Sis

2006-08-22 16:20:55 UTC

Jazzycat1 wrote:

And - Why?

Because band students could use their own trumpets thereby saving the
corps money!

I kid you not! That was part of the B.S. they floated!

Jackie

Mike

2006-08-22 16:32:48 UTC

For the 2000 season DCI div I corps passed the multi-key rule, which in
reality meant that band keyed brass (Bb/F) horns became legal.

Div II/III voted to hold off for...I think...two additional seasons.

Was 2005 the first year for DCA to permit any key? I forget on that
one.

You will get a lot of different answers as to 'why', many of them of
the 'tin foil hat' conspiracy school. .

My own view...sure to be attacked by some...

Bb/F horns are the ones potential members play on now...and have
practiced on for years. Given that most potential new members are from
the band world it just makes sense from that standpoint to switch. It
might also decrease, however slightly, some of the anti-corps attitude
of certain band directors.

Also makes financial sense. Corps can sell used Bb/F horns to band
programs and thereby keep themselves in new and improved models.
Manufacturers are steadily making improvements to Bb/F marching brass,
so to be able to stay with the latest horns at relatively low cost (due
to selling their current horns) will help.

Competition for business...the drum corps market is tiny as compared to
the band world, but having more brands to purchase from will help keep
costs down. Yamaha and King (Ah!) are brands not available in G.

Mike

Jazzycat1

2006-08-22 16:47:44 UTC

For the 2000 season DCI div I corps passed the multi-key rule, which in
reality meant that band keyed brass (Bb/F) horns became legal.
Div II/III voted to hold off for...I think...two additional seasons.
Was 2005 the first year for DCA to permit any key? I forget on that
one.
You will get a lot of different answers as to 'why', many of them of
the 'tin foil hat' conspiracy school. .
My own view...sure to be attacked by some...
Bb/F horns are the ones potential members play on now...and have
practiced on for years. Given that most potential new members are from
the band world it just makes sense from that standpoint to switch. It
might also decrease, however slightly, some of the anti-corps attitude
of certain band directors.
Also makes financial sense. Corps can sell used Bb/F horns to band
programs and thereby keep themselves in new and improved models.
Manufacturers are steadily making improvements to Bb/F marching brass,
so to be able to stay with the latest horns at relatively low cost (due
to selling their current horns) will help.
Competition for business...the drum corps market is tiny as compared to
the band world, but having more brands to purchase from will help keep
costs down. Yamaha and King (Ah!) are brands not available in G.
Mike

Well I suppose that does make sense - I wondered how difficult it was
for my friends that were horn players to make the switch to bugles. I
guess us drummers are the lucky ones in that respect!

Peter

2006-08-22 18:59:29 UTC

Jazzycat wwrote;
Well I suppose that does make sense - I wondered how difficult it was
for my friends that were horn players to make the switch to bugles. I
guess us drummers are the lucky ones in that respect!

Drummers were lucky... snares changed to Bb in 2000 and multi toms in the
same year.. Then, because Eric Perriloux didn't think the snares sounded
like snares any longer, they went back to G a year later and lowered the
tuning. Then they went from Premier and Pearl to Yamahas because the Cadets
used them... Bass drums didn't change except they stopped putting the name
of the Corps on the heads so you had to recognize unis to know who was on
the field. Some snare lines resurrected the angled snare mode of playing;
some did not. Hoppy, I heard, wanted a new rule that stopped snare lines
from using traditional grip, because it offered an unfair advantage to those
who could develope a strong left hand. The only other change was cymbal
lines were only allowed 2 cymbals per player, thus barring 3 armed cymbal
players and the line must dance while moving with the snares...,
Do not believe any of that craziness...

Post by Jazzycat1

For the 2000 season DCI div I corps passed the multi-key rule, which in
reality meant that band keyed brass (Bb/F) horns became legal.
Div II/III voted to hold off for...I think...two additional seasons.
Was 2005 the first year for DCA to permit any key? I forget on that
one.
You will get a lot of different answers as to 'why', many of them of
the 'tin foil hat' conspiracy school. .
My own view...sure to be attacked by some...
Bb/F horns are the ones potential members play on now...and have
practiced on for years. Given that most potential new members are from
the band world it just makes sense from that standpoint to switch. It
might also decrease, however slightly, some of the anti-corps attitude
of certain band directors.
Also makes financial sense. Corps can sell used Bb/F horns to band
programs and thereby keep themselves in new and improved models.
Manufacturers are steadily making improvements to Bb/F marching brass,
so to be able to stay with the latest horns at relatively low cost (due
to selling their current horns) will help.
Competition for business...the drum corps market is tiny as compared to
the band world, but having more brands to purchase from will help keep
costs down. Yamaha and King (Ah!) are brands not available in G.
Mike

Well I suppose that does make sense - I wondered how difficult it was
for my friends that were horn players to make the switch to bugles. I
guess us drummers are the lucky ones in that respect!

Jim Blansett

2006-08-22 19:03:04 UTC

Post by Jazzycat1

For the 2000 season DCI div I corps passed the multi-key rule, which in
reality meant that band keyed brass (Bb/F) horns became legal.
Div II/III voted to hold off for...I think...two additional seasons.
Was 2005 the first year for DCA to permit any key? I forget on that
one.
You will get a lot of different answers as to 'why', many of them of
the 'tin foil hat' conspiracy school. .
My own view...sure to be attacked by some...
Bb/F horns are the ones potential members play on now...and have
practiced on for years. Given that most potential new members are from
the band world it just makes sense from that standpoint to switch. It
might also decrease, however slightly, some of the anti-corps attitude
of certain band directors.
Also makes financial sense. Corps can sell used Bb/F horns to band
programs and thereby keep themselves in new and improved models.
Manufacturers are steadily making improvements to Bb/F marching brass,
so to be able to stay with the latest horns at relatively low cost (due
to selling their current horns) will help.
Competition for business...the drum corps market is tiny as compared to
the band world, but having more brands to purchase from will help keep
costs down. Yamaha and King (Ah!) are brands not available in G.
Mike

Well I suppose that does make sense - I wondered how difficult it was
for my friends that were horn players to make the switch to bugles. I
guess us drummers are the lucky ones in that respect!

It wasn't difficult in the least. After all, how difficult was it to
go from 12 oz. cans to 16's?

Ken Norman

2006-08-22 19:20:41 UTC

After all, how difficult was it to go from 12 oz. cans to 16's?

U got it bassackwards, brother.

The musical ratio of the pitch Bb to G is 6:5. Therefore the length of
the tubing of a G soprano is 6/5 that of a Bb trumpet.

Therefore any bugler drinking 12 ozers who switched to trumpet now is
allowed only 10 oz. of beverage.

Jim Blansett

2006-08-22 21:03:02 UTC

Post by Ken Norman
After all, how difficult was it to go from 12 oz. cans to 16's?
U got it bassackwards, brother.
The musical ratio of the pitch Bb to G is 6:5. Therefore the length of
the tubing of a G soprano is 6/5 that of a Bb trumpet.
Therefore any bugler drinking 12 ozers who switched to trumpet now is
allowed only 10 oz. of beverage.

Well, you got the picture I was trying to paint, anyway! I was just
bass ackward, as usual. ;-)

Sis

2006-08-22 22:54:06 UTC

So then if before Bbs you could bring up to a 5 inch lens in to the
competition, how big of a lens could you bring in now?

Jackie

Ron Allard

2006-08-22 23:46:55 UTC

Post by Jazzycat1
Well I suppose that does make sense - I wondered how difficult it was
for my friends that were horn players to make the switch to bugles. I
guess us drummers are the lucky ones in that respect!

It was trivial compared to being handed a horn with a horizontal valve and
either a slide or a rotary - but thousands managed it just fine for decades...
Heh...
--
Ron in Florida

"Because there was always something about the Skyliners...
and that music..."
- Donnie Solinger

Diceman Radio: 24/7 Old Time Drum Corps
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Senior Corps History site:
http://www.SrCorps.com

Sis

2006-08-22 18:44:19 UTC

For the 2000 season DCI div I corps passed the multi-key rule, which in
reality meant that band keyed brass (Bb/F) horns became legal.
Div II/III voted to hold off for...I think...two additional seasons.
Was 2005 the first year for DCA to permit any key? I forget on that
one.
You will get a lot of different answers as to 'why', many of them of
the 'tin foil hat' conspiracy school. .
My own view...sure to be attacked by some...
Bb/F horns are the ones potential members play on now...and have
practiced on for years. Given that most potential new members are from
the band world it just makes sense from that standpoint to switch. It
might also decrease, however slightly, some of the anti-corps attitude
of certain band directors.
Also makes financial sense. Corps can sell used Bb/F horns to band
programs and thereby keep themselves in new and improved models.
Manufacturers are steadily making improvements to Bb/F marching brass,
so to be able to stay with the latest horns at relatively low cost (due
to selling their current horns) will help.
Competition for business...the drum corps market is tiny as compared to
the band world, but having more brands to purchase from will help keep
costs down. Yamaha and King (Ah!) are brands not available in G.

Michael, you're killin' me! These weren't the reasons we were given to
do this. These were the reasons we sarcastically said it was going to
be done and son of a bitch if we weren't right!

Hmmmm, tin hat or bunny ears which should I choose?

;-)

I don't know what we'd do without you, Mike!

Jackie

Mike

2006-08-23 18:37:04 UTC

Post by Sis
Michael, you're killin' me! These weren't the reasons we were given to
do this. These were the reasons we sarcastically said it was going to
be done and son of a bitch if we weren't right!
Hmmmm, tin hat or bunny ears which should I choose?
;-)
I don't know what we'd do without you, Mike!
Jackie

Well, I am giving MHO...not whatever was 'given' to 'us' by whomever.

Mike

Justin H.

2006-08-22 19:17:09 UTC

Not attacked. Challenged!

Post by Mike
Bb/F horns are the ones potential members play on now...and have
practiced on for years. Given that most potential new members are from
the band world it just makes sense from that standpoint to switch.

What happened to education? Or is that something that DCI isn't about
any more? Is it that the kids can't possibly adjust to a different key?

Post by Mike
It might also decrease, however slightly, some of the anti-corps attitude
of certain band directors.

No offense to you, but joke 'em if they can't take a fuck.

Seriously, if there were more of a community involvement on the part of
the corps, this would be less of a concern since the band directors
wouldn't be the only source of advertising.

I keep hearing about these corps that didn't change out their horns
every year or two, but I don't see any now. I wonder if that would have
anything to do with it.

Post by Mike
Competition for business...the drum corps market is tiny as compared to
the band world, but having more brands to purchase from will help keep
costs down. Yamaha and King (Ah!) are brands not available in G.

Oh yeah. Way to feed the conspiracy theories! Frankly, the only reason
Bb horns are cheaper is because Yamaha comps a decent amount of the
price. If you look around at individual horn prices, Bb horns can cost
at least as much as a G horn, if not more. And frankly, I'd rather own
my Kanstul than a Yamaha (but that may very well be just me).

In my own cynical opinion,
Justin H.

--
"[...]and God wants to be a DJ.
I just want to be a drummer."

Peter

2006-08-22 20:18:46 UTC

They cost more than G bugles overall, but I prefer Ken Normans remark about
Beer can sizes..........Funny.

Post by Justin H.

Not attacked. Challenged!

What happened to education? Or is that something that DCI isn't about
any more? Is it that the kids can't possibly adjust to a different key?

Post by Mike
It might also decrease, however slightly, some of the anti-corps attitude
of certain band directors.

No offense to you, but joke 'em if they can't take a fuck.
Seriously, if there were more of a community involvement on the part of
the corps, this would be less of a concern since the band directors
wouldn't be the only source of advertising.

I keep hearing about these corps that didn't change out their horns
every year or two, but I don't see any now. I wonder if that would have
anything to do with it.

Ken Norman

2006-08-22 20:29:38 UTC

"... I prefer Ken Normans remark about Beer can sizes..."

Now, now. This is a family-oriented forum. I said "beverage".

[However, DCA is coming up in 10 days.]

Peter

2006-08-22 21:40:15 UTC

Post by Ken Norman
"... I prefer Ken Normans remark about Beer can sizes..."
Now, now. This is a family-oriented forum. I said "beverage".
[However, DCA is coming up in 10 days.]

I stand corrected; you did say 'beverage'. An important and careful
distinction, until Labor Day as you pointed out.
I believe Shriners (that great philanthropy) invented styro foam cups for
just that purpose. So you couldn't tell WHAT they wuz drinking and wouldn't
annoy anyone with the flagrant flashing of *eer *ans.....

Bill Roderick

2006-08-22 22:24:36 UTC

I've been trying to understand this point since the change happened. The
vast majority of
the pontential players are all collage music majors. I've been told by
people that have
graduated from some pretty prestegious east coast schools that it was common
to have to
play a piece in multiple keys by transposing on the spot. Now what is the
difference with doing this
on a Bb trumpet or just playing the piece on a G bugle? The fingerings are
virtually identical
except for tuning purposes on a G bugle you might have to use an alternate
fingering. I play mellophone with
Mass Brass mini-corps & I have to use the 3rd valve for E & A, plus 2 & 3
for Eb. It sucks because
my 3rd finger is not great but I can do it & I'm a 50 year old bugle player
& far from a music major. I can't even read
music! I have to write the letters on the page. Now your point about
anti-corps attitude makes sence, but like you said,
only slightly so is it worth it?

See NanciD, when I have something to say I speak up! By the way, George the
Greek was at Kingston did you see him?

Bill

Post by Mike
Also makes financial sense. Corps can sell used Bb/F horns to band
programs and thereby keep themselves in new and improved models.
Manufacturers are steadily making improvements to Bb/F marching brass,
so to be able to stay with the latest horns at relatively low cost (due
to selling their current horns) will help.
Competition for business...the drum corps market is tiny as compared to
the band world, but having more brands to purchase from will help keep
costs down. Yamaha and King (Ah!) are brands not available in G.
Mike

bob E

2006-08-23 00:08:05 UTC

Aparently the "music majors" won;t be able to get a job that requires
playing a C trumpet either.

Post by Bill Roderick

I've been trying to understand this point since the change happened. The
vast majority of
the pontential players are all collage music majors. I've been told by
people that have
graduated from some pretty prestegious east coast schools that it was common
to have to
play a piece in multiple keys by transposing on the spot. Now what is the
difference with doing this
on a Bb trumpet or just playing the piece on a G bugle? The fingerings are
virtually identical
except for tuning purposes on a G bugle you might have to use an alternate
fingering. I play mellophone with
Mass Brass mini-corps & I have to use the 3rd valve for E & A, plus 2 & 3
for Eb. It sucks because
my 3rd finger is not great but I can do it & I'm a 50 year old bugle player
& far from a music major. I can't even read
music! I have to write the letters on the page. Now your point about
anti-corps attitude makes sence, but like you said,
only slightly so is it worth it?
See NanciD, when I have something to say I speak up! By the way, George the
Greek was at Kingston did you see him?
Bill

Mike

2006-08-23 18:43:36 UTC

Post by Bill Roderick
I've been trying to understand this point since the change happened. The
vast majority of
the pontential players are all collage music majors.

No they are not. The vast majority have come through scholastic music
programs, but most drum corps members are not music majors in college.

Post by Bill Roderick
I've been told by
people that have
graduated from some pretty prestegious east coast schools that it was common
to have to
play a piece in multiple keys by transposing on the spot. Now what is the
difference with doing this
on a Bb trumpet or just playing the piece on a G bugle?

Play a written 4th line 'D' on both horns and it's first valve. It just
plays a different concert pitch.

That difference in audible pitch is one of the adjustments members have
to make...and most are not music majors. Why NOT remove one rehearsal
issue if it is easily done so by using instruments pitched as they are
used to hearing them?

Mike

Ken Norman

2006-08-23 18:58:09 UTC

" Why NOT remove one rehearsal issue if it is easily done so by using
instruments pitched as they are
used to hearing them? "

By the same rationale, let's not switch implements while playing
percussion. It's an impediment to education.

Mike

2006-08-24 17:49:59 UTC

Post by Ken Norman
" Why NOT remove one rehearsal issue if it is easily done so by using
instruments pitched as they are
used to hearing them? "
By the same rationale, let's not switch implements while playing
percussion. It's an impediment to education.

Using appropriate mallets is part of being a percussionist, be it
outdoors or indoors.

Ken Norman

2006-08-24 18:02:09 UTC

Using appropriate mallets is part of being a percussionist, be it
outdoors or indoors.

And understanding the relationship of one pitch to another is essential
to being a competent player of a tonal instrument.

Mike

2006-08-24 19:48:16 UTC

Post by Mike
Using appropriate mallets is part of being a percussionist, be it
outdoors or indoors.
And understanding the relationship of one pitch to another is essential
to being a competent player of a tonal instrument

Absolutely. Never said it wasn't. And understanding those relationships
on a Bb or F instrument in drum corps is an easier transition for a
person with years of Bb/F experience in school than adjusting to a G
horn's set of pitches.

There is just no point to a DCI corps purchasing a set of G horns in
this century, as there was no point to a corps in 1971 purchasing
straight bugles with no valves and rotors.

Mike

Ken Norman

2006-08-24 20:54:38 UTC

"... understanding those relationships on a Bb or F instrument in drum
corps is an easier transition for a

person with years of Bb/F experience in school than adjusting to a G horn's set of pitches."

Intervals are intervals, Mr. Drummer. Three steps off the forty is the
same marching interval as three steps off the fifty. A minor third on a
band horn is the same musical interval as a minor third on a bugle.

Bill Roderick

2006-08-23 20:33:58 UTC

I'm not trying to be argumentative here I'm trying to understand.
By "scholastic" do you mean High School? I really don't think
your saying the majority of DCI Div. I brass players are high school
students?

As for adjusting for the differences in the pitch, I would assume very
few brass players could play each pitch perfectly without adjusting on some
pitches
that they know from all their years of playing they have to be careful of.
I'm sure
if I called on everyone to post the pitch they have to play a little on top
of, or a
little below so that they could center correctly, or like I stated before
how on certain pitches
I have to use alternate fingering to center......................... what's
the difference?

I've taken my trumpet & have played solos, duets, ensemble groups, up to
nearly
a full orchestra in my Church without having to make a huge adjustment. And
I
barley consider myself a musician, so what's the difference?

Bill

Post by Bill Roderick
I've been trying to understand this point since the change happened. The
vast majority of
the pontential players are all collage music majors.

No they are not. The vast majority have come through scholastic music
programs, but most drum corps members are not music majors in college.

Play a written 4th line 'D' on both horns and it's first valve. It just
plays a different concert pitch.
That difference in audible pitch is one of the adjustments members have
to make...and most are not music majors. Why NOT remove one rehearsal
issue if it is easily done so by using instruments pitched as they are
used to hearing them?
Mike

Dufarb

2006-08-23 20:39:35 UTC

Post by Bill Roderick
I'm not trying to be argumentative here I'm trying to understand.
By "scholastic" do you mean High School? I really don't think
your saying the majority of DCI Div. I brass players are high school
students?
From my experience, East coast Div 1 Corps were mostly college

students. West coast Div 1 Corps were mostly Highschool students, or
College age but not in school.
This is only what I saw from the people and corps I got to know.

Mike

2006-08-24 17:47:42 UTC

No...most members have come up through scholastic programs...through HS
band...some go on and play in college as either music majors or
non-music majors. Most corps members are not music majors, but just
about all came up through school music programs is what I am saying.

Mike

Siglow

2006-08-24 18:00:16 UTC

Post by Mike
No...most members have come up through scholastic programs...through HS
band...some go on and play in college as either music majors or
non-music majors. Most corps members are not music majors, but just
about all came up through school music programs is what I am saying.
Mike

Well Mike, with regards to your "Alma Mater", Hopkins, during one of
the Cadets preseason, pre-tour exhibitions he was quoted as saying, "We
have the honor of having in our ranks 4 All State high school band
musicians." After the applause died out he continued, "The rest are all
college music majors".

Siglow

Bill Roderick

2006-08-24 20:11:28 UTC

And there are times when in school when they
have to transpose on the spot.

Bill

Post by Siglow

b***@earthlink.net

2006-08-22 23:31:09 UTC

One of the reasons given, honestly, was that the instrument
manufacturers asked for the change. (I was told this by an employee of
one of the manufacturers) They were spending mega $$ on improving their
B-flat, F, and E-flat marching brass because of the improvements of the
HS bands and they didn't want to weaken that by also improving the G
"bugle" line.

Bottom line, the B-flat, F, and E-flat instruments are far superior in
construction that the Gs, thus easier to play, longer lasting, and
better pitch and tone.

As for the corps selling their used equipment . . . yep, the
manufacturers give them big discounts and then they turn around and
sell them for just under MSRP.

Tis unfair to the public schools who aren't given the same discounts as
the corps.

Ken Norman

2006-08-23 02:31:27 UTC

***@earthlink.net wrote:

"Bottom line, the B-flat, F, and E-flat instruments are far superior in
construction that the Gs, thus easier to play, longer lasting, and
better pitch and tone."

Sorry, but there is no foundation for any of the statements in this
paragraph.

Let's make a deal - I played bass clarinet for four weeks and contrabass
clarinet for four months. But I have been building and researching G
bugles for over four decades. And I have *some* brass playing and
teaching credentials.

I promise not to make any preposterous statements about large clarinets
if you don't try to come across as an authority on brass acoustics and
pedagogy.

b***@earthlink.net

2006-08-23 03:20:43 UTC

Post by Ken Norman
"Bottom line, the B-flat, F, and E-flat instruments are far superior in
construction that the Gs, thus easier to play, longer lasting, and
better pitch and tone."
Sorry, but there is no foundation for any of the statements in this
paragraph.
Let's make a deal - I played bass clarinet for four weeks and contrabass
clarinet for four months. But I have been building and researching G
bugles for over four decades. And I have *some* brass playing and
teaching credentials.
I promise not to make any preposterous statements about large clarinets
if you don't try to come across as an authority on brass acoustics and
pedagogy.

I didn't say I was an authority, and I never questioned your
experience. I have heard/read about your background and I belive that
you have significant experience to form your own opinions, and I
respect you for having done your own research. I am a trained music
teacher, have been teaching for 20 years. My statement is MY OPINION,
based on my research, experience and many discussions with brass
specialists over the past 20 years. EVERY brass instructor I have
personally spoken with agree with my belief. No, I will not name names
becuse I am not a name dropper and there is no need to drag anyone else
into this. Just because my email is "bassclarinet" you assumed I had
no basis for my opinion.

Hey, I may be wrong, but you may be also. The point is, you have
formed your opinions based on your research and background and I have
formed my opinions based on my research and background.

I respecfully agree to disagree. Can you?

Peace!

D. MacKinley Riebesehl

2006-08-23 03:43:43 UTC

Actually Kenny is stating fact. He helped design many horns over the past 4
decades and at one time every corps in DCI (except for the one corps that Royer
worked with!) played at least one of his charts.

Having worked with Ziggy Kanstul to design his new contrabass back in the 80's,
I can honestly say that the same parts were used in the G horns as in the Bbs,
they were just pitched a third lower. The King contrabass I played throughout
my marching career was built from the same major tubing as the 4V BBb tuba I
grew up on in HS. And as for easier to play, just ask the kids "trying" to do
the high end trumpet solos. You just do not hear the "screamers" like you used
to hear in Madison, BD, North Star in the decades past, or in the alumni corps
now.

I found the most difficult thing was learning to read treble clef on a bass
clef type instrument, but it did help my music ability to be forced to do so.
Some corps, like Phantom and Crossmen, used bass clef parts for their contra
players, but used CC fingerings, which would give the correct corresponding
notes in warmup, etc.

I didn't say I was an authority, and I never questioned your
experience. I have heard/read about your background and I belive that
you have significant experience to form your own opinions, and I
respect you for having done your own research. I am a trained music
teacher, have been teaching for 20 years. My statement is MY OPINION,
based on my research, experience and many discussions with brass
specialists over the past 20 years. EVERY brass instructor I have
personally spoken with agree with my belief. No, I will not name names
becuse I am not a name dropper and there is no need to drag anyone else
into this. Just because my email is "bassclarinet" you assumed I had
no basis for my opinion.
Hey, I may be wrong, but you may be also. The point is, you have
formed your opinions based on your research and background and I have
formed my opinions based on my research and background.
I respecfully agree to disagree. Can you?
Peace!

Ken Norman

2006-08-23 06:35:24 UTC

Bottom line, the B-flat, F, and E-flat instruments are far superior in
construction that the Gs, thus easier to play, longer lasting, and
better pitch and tone.

"Bottom line" sounds like a pretty authoritive statement, not just an
opinion.

"Superior in construction", "longer lasting" --- G bugles have always
been built by the same band instrument manufacturers, using the same
methods and materials. The key of the horn is not a factor here.

"pitch and tone" --- are largely based on the skills of the player. The
behavior of the hardware is based upon laws of physics which are
independent of any alphabetical labels we have traditionally ascribed to
certain frequencies.

[What is intrinsically better, a Bb clarinet or an A clarinet? Or a
Balkan clarinet in G? Or a Bassett Horn in F?]

G bugles are built from the major components of Bb band instruments. The
additional cylindrical tubing changes the proportions of the instrument,
and gives them their characteristic sound - the most distinct trait
being a strong upper register.

There never has been any significant raw research done on the optimum
physical characteristics of instruments best suited for outdoor
performance. [And this statement includes keyboards.]

Our activity has been hornswoggled by manufacturers interested only in
selling what they already have in their catalogs. They don't really care
about the activity. Or "the kids".

They just care about THEIR bottom line.

Carol Hooton

2006-08-23 10:48:57 UTC

AMEN! Ken. AS Deep Throat said, "Follow the Money." Ignore the esoteric
reasoning.

Post by b***@earthlink.net
Bottom line, the B-flat, F, and E-flat instruments are far superior in
construction that the Gs, thus easier to play, longer lasting, and
better pitch and tone.
"Bottom line" sounds like a pretty authoritive statement, not just an
opinion.
"Superior in construction", "longer lasting" --- G bugles have always been
built by the same band instrument manufacturers, using the same methods
and materials. The key of the horn is not a factor here.
"pitch and tone" --- are largely based on the skills of the player. The
behavior of the hardware is based upon laws of physics which are
independent of any alphabetical labels we have traditionally ascribed to
certain frequencies.
[What is intrinsically better, a Bb clarinet or an A clarinet? Or a Balkan
clarinet in G? Or a Bassett Horn in F?]
G bugles are built from the major components of Bb band instruments. The
additional cylindrical tubing changes the proportions of the instrument,
and gives them their characteristic sound - the most distinct trait being
a strong upper register.
There never has been any significant raw research done on the optimum
physical characteristics of instruments best suited for outdoor
performance. [And this statement includes keyboards.]
Our activity has been hornswoggled by manufacturers interested only in
selling what they already have in their catalogs. They don't really care
about the activity. Or "the kids".
They just care about THEIR bottom line.

Box 5 Concepts and Motivation

2006-08-23 15:03:41 UTC

Typically I find the people who complain are those who have not played
in a line of b-flats, because people tend to shut up after they
discover that they ARE indeed better.

One of my favorite sayings comes from a brass caption I marched under
and he said:

Advantages of the Bb tpts:

1.) easier to play
2.) better in tune
3.) instruments are made better
4.) dont have to be custom made
5.) better for lower budget/upstart corps (ie bring your own)
6.) easier to get endorsements
7.) it is a "standard"

Disadvantages of the Bb tpts:

1.) dont have that G "sizzle" (yet, but we are getting there...)
2.) dont have that long "character building learning curve"
3.) cant make fun of Bb's anymore
4.) no longer have the excuse: "wow look how good we are for playing on
pieces of crap"

Dufarb

2006-08-23 15:51:47 UTC

Post by Box 5 Concepts and Motivation

Practice

Post by Box 5 Concepts and Motivation
2.) better in tune

Practice

Post by Box 5 Concepts and Motivation
3.) instruments are made better

Post by Box 5 Concepts and Motivation
4.) dont have to be custom made

Post by Box 5 Concepts and Motivation
5.) better for lower budget/upstart corps (ie bring your own)

Sure

Post by Box 5 Concepts and Motivation
6.) easier to get endorsements

Don't see why?

Post by Box 5 Concepts and Motivation
7.) it is a "standard"

Only because someone said it was, G used to be the standard

Post by Box 5 Concepts and Motivation
1.) dont have that G "sizzle" (yet, but we are getting there...)

I don't hear it.

Post by Box 5 Concepts and Motivation
2.) dont have that long "character building learning curve"
3.) cant make fun of Bb's anymore

I love my B-flat, and still pick on them.

Post by Box 5 Concepts and Motivation
4.) no longer have the excuse: "wow look how good we are for playing on
pieces of crap"

They only look bad, they usually still sound awesome.

I would have to say that almost Every point you made was based on the
experience of the players, or false. Relearning to play on a G bugle
is not that difficult, and you can get the same if not better sound out
of one. The instruments are not custom made, they are available in
their product line anyway. With the exception of a few manufacturers
that were started to manufacture Bugles for drum corps, most have many
products available in many keys.

Disclaimer: Statements I make are not fact. They are merely my opinion
and observations. They are not intended to offend or demean anyone.
It is being posted to continue an interesting, friendly discussion.
Please feel free to correct any statement I have made.

Jim On The Move

2006-08-23 16:10:45 UTC

Once again, what defines the drum and bugle corps identity? If the Key
of G is traditionally our identity. Let it be that! We use bugles. I
have a 1970's Olds bugle brochure. Those bugles look great with just
the valve and rotary. It really doesn't matter: one two or three
valves. Keep our horn identity in the Key of G.

We've all heard sweet, musical, soft, and powerful sounds coming out
of the G bugle over the years prior to the change. Unfortunately,
nobody stood up at these change meetings and drew a line in the sand.
We let people come into our activity and tell US what defines a drum
and bugle corps sound. Let the bands have their Bb flats and let drum
and BUGLE corps keep their key of G. We've lost what we fought to
maintain: our history and tradition with the bugle.

In the long run though, it is this generation of horn players who will
NEVER know what it was like to play on a G bugle. They lose out an a
great musical education. Plus the diversity of being able to play both
horns. Let them listen to Tommy Martin's triple tonguing solo on the
Fleetwood's Evening With The Corps 1963. Nuff said!

Dufarb

2006-08-23 16:16:04 UTC

Post by Jim On The Move
Once again, what defines the drum and bugle corps identity? If the Key
of G is traditionally our identity. Let it be that! We use bugles. I
have a 1970's Olds bugle brochure. Those bugles look great with just
the valve and rotary. It really doesn't matter: one two or three
valves. Keep our horn identity in the Key of G.
We've all heard sweet, musical, soft, and powerful sounds coming out
of the G bugle over the years prior to the change. Unfortunately,
nobody stood up at these change meetings and drew a line in the sand.
We let people come into our activity and tell US what defines a drum
and bugle corps sound. Let the bands have their Bb flats and let drum
and BUGLE corps keep their key of G. We've lost what we fought to
maintain: our history and tradition with the bugle.
In the long run though, it is this generation of horn players who will
NEVER know what it was like to play on a G bugle. They lose out an a
great musical education. Plus the diversity of being able to play both
horns. Let them listen to Tommy Martin's triple tonguing solo on the
Fleetwood's Evening With The Corps 1963. Nuff said!

I'd like to hear some of these shows everyone keeps mentioning. Where
can I find them?

Ron Allard

2006-08-23 23:09:08 UTC

Post by Dufarb
I'd like to hear some of these shows everyone keeps mentioning. Where
can I find them?

Check my sig...
Listening is completely free, you just have to sign up with live365.com...
You can even set it up so you can listen with your favorite player (WinAMP, WMP,
etc.)

In fact, let me know when you're listening and I'll queue up a few old hornlines
for you...

(Not tonight, though; I'm on my way back out for an Installation...)
--
Ron in Florida

"Because there was always something about the Skyliners...
and that music..."
- Donnie Solinger

Diceman Radio: 24/7 Old Time Drum Corps
Dialup:
http://www.live365.com/stations/diceman719
Broadband:
http://www.live365.com/stations/diceman719h

Senior Corps History site:
http://www.SrCorps.com

Ken Norman

2006-08-23 17:47:01 UTC

1.) easier to play

I love this one. Even if it is an unfounded pronouncement.

Saxophones are easier to play than oboes and bassoons, and easier on the
budget. So let's eliminate double reeds from the school music programs.

While you're at it, buddy, ditch your euph and just get some CDs of
Steven Mead. They're easier to play.

Stu

2006-08-23 18:25:44 UTC

Post by Box 5 Concepts and Motivation
Typically I find the people who complain are those who have not played
in a line of b-flats, because people tend to shut up after they
discover that they ARE indeed better.

Better for indoors playing, yes. Better for outdoor accoustics, no. I
know its an appealing experience for musicians, but they (particularly
those who move into leadership positions within the activity) really
need to understand and respect the medium.

Stuart E. Rice
www.marchingresearch.com

Dufarb

2006-08-23 19:49:06 UTC

Okay, so lets ask, Why did they choose G bugles in the first place.
B-flat instruments were available back when DCI was formed. I am
guessing DCI incorporated standards from earlier organizations. So
whydid those groups choose G?

b***@earthlink.net

2006-08-23 20:20:59 UTC

Post by Dufarb
Okay, so lets ask, Why did they choose G bugles in the first place.
B-flat instruments were available back when DCI was formed. I am
guessing DCI incorporated standards from earlier organizations. So
whydid those groups choose G?

OK, why not just go back to the original bugle . . . no valves. These
were in several keys and the players would sometimes carry more than
one so they could switch when the music called for a change of key.

Dufarb

2006-08-23 20:47:33 UTC

When I was with the Velvet Knights, I missed the oportunity to play
Euph instead of Baritone, Their Euphoniums had 2 valves. I would love
to try to play in a group with instruments like that. Either no valves
or limited valves. I had an oportunity to play a 1 valve melophone
from VK's archives. It was interesting, but didn't have as many
limitations as you might think.
How many musitions nowadays can play a C while fingering a D. One of
the things we focused on in the Cadets in '96 was not using the tuning
slide. By the end of the season we didn't have to move the slide
during the show, or use alternate fingerings. That is called
musicianship, and we need more of that nowadays.
People need to lose the fear of practice.
Practice and proper instruction can get you anywhere.

Jim Blansett

2006-08-23 22:32:02 UTC

Post by Dufarb

A valve on a mellophone -- who knew? I guess, more importantly, what
good is it? ;-)

Ken Norman

2006-08-23 22:40:50 UTC

***@earthlink.net wrote:
Dufarb wrote:

Okay, so lets ask, Why did they choose G bugles in the first place...

OK, why not just go back to the original bugle . . . no valves. These
were in several keys and the players would sometimes carry more than
one so they could switch when the music called for a change of key.

More twisted history from our music teacher.

The competitive corps activity started in the early 20s. The instrument
of choice was the US Army bugle, specifically the M1892 signal trumpet in G.

It was not long before the rules were changed to allow other voices.
Valveless baritones, an octave lower, were common. An instrument two
octaves lower was also legalized, but apparently none were ever built.

In 1929, Racine's Boys of '76 crooked some of their bugles in D. By
alternating melody notes between sections, they were able to play "real"
music such as America and Over There.

They were protested for this at the American Legion Nationals in
Louisville KY by the Harvey Seeds drum corps of Miami FL. But the Boys
of '76 had received a ruling on July 15 from Walter E. McDougle,
chairman of the trophy and awards committee. It stated that the
instruments of the Racine drum corps were satisfactory as long as they
weren’t changed in the middle of music that they were playing.

118 corps were in Louisville for that convention. The Frankford Post No.
211 drum and bugle corps of Philadelphia, PA won the championship
playing valveless bugles. Miami placed 14th, and Racine (for all their
efforts) ended up in 15th.

The next year the single piston in D was legalized, and most competitive
corps were quick to adopt it. But it could only be used freely in local
circuit shows. The American Legion required the piston to be locked in
either G or D, and this practice continued for a number of years.

Periodically on eBay you will find G bugles with a piston lock on the
valve stem. Reseaching their serial numbers will show them being made
all the way until the onset of WWII.

Jim On The Move

2006-08-24 02:17:52 UTC

Post by Ken Norman
Okay, so lets ask, Why did they choose G bugles in the first place...
OK, why not just go back to the original bugle . . . no valves. These
were in several keys and the players would sometimes carry more than
one so they could switch when the music called for a change of key.
More twisted history from our music teacher.
The competitive corps activity started in the early 20s. The instrument
of choice was the US Army bugle, specifically the M1892 signal trumpet in G.
It was not long before the rules were changed to allow other voices.
Valveless baritones, an octave lower, were common. An instrument two
octaves lower was also legalized, but apparently none were ever built.

Kudos Ken: Fact versus Fiction

Post by Ken Norman
In 1929, Racine's Boys of '76 crooked some of their bugles in D. By
alternating melody notes between sections, they were able to play "real"
music such as America and Over There.
They were protested for this at the American Legion Nationals in
Louisville KY by the Harvey Seeds drum corps of Miami FL. But the Boys
of '76 had received a ruling on July 15 from Walter E. McDougle,
chairman of the trophy and awards committee. It stated that the
instruments of the Racine drum corps were satisfactory as long as they
weren't changed in the middle of music that they were playing.
118 corps were in Louisville for that convention. The Frankford Post No.
211 drum and bugle corps of Philadelphia, PA won the championship
playing valveless bugles. Miami placed 14th, and Racine (for all their
efforts) ended up in 15th.
The next year the single piston in D was legalized, and most competitive
corps were quick to adopt it. But it could only be used freely in local
circuit shows. The American Legion required the piston to be locked in
either G or D, and this practice continued for a number of years.
Periodically on eBay you will find G bugles with a piston lock on the
valve stem. Reseaching their serial numbers will show them being made
all the way until the onset of WWII.

JimF-xWSMBari

2006-08-24 16:57:42 UTC

Also heard stated that there are a lot more used Bb instruments on the
market so it would be easier to start a new corps. Have yet to hear
anyone say that it has actually helped their corps.

Ca 1940 Tenor Bari with valve lock

http://www.flickr.com/photos/***@N00/100980480/

Close up of valve lock (aka thumbscrew)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/***@N00/100980482/in/photostream/

Catherine

2006-08-24 01:45:19 UTC

From: "Dufarb" <***@gmail.com>
Date: 23 Aug 2006 13:47:33 -0700
Message-ID: <***@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.234.204.7

***@earthlink.net wrote:
[Date: 23 Aug 2006 13:20:59 -0700
References: <***@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.19.95.193]

Post by b***@earthlink.net
OK, why not just go back to the original bugle . . . no valves. These
were in several keys and the players would sometimes carry more than
one so they could switch when the music called for a change of key.

These two are no doubt examples of the sortza educational process and product DCI
promulgates. Whenever I hear and see blandos claiming to know something about
"tradition" and the "history of drumcorp" [sic], I figure this sort of ignorance and
lack of care will follow.

What is genuine will endure. What is false/phony will not. And all those who so
very genuinely care about "the kids" will attempt to save them from stupidly
parroting such nonsensical revisionism. Unfortunately, having to support - somehow -
a blando fraud... But then, an organization founded by pedophiles and those who
enabled them and covered (and still cover) the truth of all that oughtta be enough of
a giveaway...

It's a tautology that from a contradiction, anything can follow. And that's why for
blandos, they can promulgate anything at all (except genuine drum & bugle corps,
fraternal values, history...). For the short term, anyhoo - until enough people will
say aloud that the Emperor Has No Clothes, and in fact has been naked for decades.
In any case, it's no use attempting to appear to reason with such persons. They gave
up on anything genuine a loooong time ago, and would forfeit their only remaining
recruitment ability if they ever had the inclination, let alone made the choice for,
something better.

-- Catherine

Catherine

2006-08-24 01:45:19 UTC