The Great Mellophone Debate

[Carol Hooton]

OK - Let's have at it. Can we reach a definitive agreement? Received an
email today from Dominick DelRa's Brother-in-law. He said Dom designed the
mellophone after the 1963 season. He couldn't convince any of the musical
instrument manufacturers in the US to make the horn, so Whaley, Royce in
Toronto machined the first mellophones. The Interstatesmen, where Dom was
music director, began to practice with the horn during the fall/winter of
1963/1964. Now, somewhere in my memory there is also something about the
Toronto Optimists having one of the original mellophones too. Can't
remember if Dom was also teaching them or just what the details are. Any
help, debate, corrections, are appreciated. Attempted to contact Whaley,
Royce, but they are out of business.

Carol Hooton

[Jeff]

Not sure what the debate is, but here is the blurb from the Whaley Royce
catalog;

The Imperial mellophone

This model of the Imperial concert bugle is absolutely perfect in every
way. First introduced in 1963 and made to the special specifications of
Mr. Dominic Delray, the Music Director of the Interstatemen Drum and
Bugle Corps of Pittsfield, Mass., this Corps purchased six and used them
for the first time in Canada in Quebec City in February 1964. (I believe
the actual spelling is DelRa, not Delray)

The History of Drum Corps Volume 1 chapter by Scooter Pirkle adds that
the Toronto Optimists and Belleville Black Knights had added them to
their lines by the summer of 1964.

Not sure where I got this but that the inspiration for the mellophone
came about from the influence of Stan Kenton's mellophonium bands of
that era.

Hope that helps.....

Jeff

Post by Carol Hooton
OK - Let's have at it. Can we reach a definitive agreement? Received
an email today from Dominick DelRa's Brother-in-law. He said Dom
designed the mellophone after the 1963 season. He couldn't convince any
of the musical instrument manufacturers in the US to make the horn, so
Whaley, Royce in Toronto machined the first mellophones. The
Interstatesmen, where Dom was music director, began to practice with the
horn during the fall/winter of 1963/1964. Now, somewhere in my memory
there is also something about the Toronto Optimists having one of the
original mellophones too. Can't remember if Dom was also teaching them
or just what the details are. Any help, debate, corrections, are
appreciated. Attempted to contact Whaley, Royce, but they are out of
business.
Carol Hooton

[Tom & Karen Peashey]

absolutely true

and the first prototype mellophone had his name engraved on it... the
family would love to find it ...

I visited the Whaley Royce plant several times and discussed this with them
and confirmed all of this... Whaley Royce also made the first "Grande"
contra which turned the first Getzen Contra into a real copy of a tuba (MUCH
larger) and gave it the bravado we take for granted today with our solid
contra support to the music...

By the way, Dom was an amazing guy - it was my privilege to work under him
in the 1971 Brigadiers...

Rochester Crusaders switched from 10 French Horns to 8 French and 2
mellophones for the 1966 season... I was one of the two.

and YES playing the Whaley Royce horn in tune was an adventure

Because of the success of Dominic's first use of the horn, it would not
surprise me - considering the connections and factory location - if
Optimists were one of the first juniors to have them.

Post by Carol Hooton
OK - Let's have at it. Can we reach a definitive agreement? Received an
email today from Dominick DelRa's Brother-in-law. He said Dom designed the
mellophone after the 1963 season. He couldn't convince any of the musical
instrument manufacturers in the US to make the horn, so Whaley, Royce in
Toronto machined the first mellophones. The Interstatesmen, where Dom was
music director, began to practice with the horn during the fall/winter of
1963/1964. Now, somewhere in my memory there is also something about the
Toronto Optimists having one of the original mellophones too. Can't
remember if Dom was also teaching them or just what the details are. Any
help, debate, corrections, are appreciated. Attempted to contact Whaley,
Royce, but they are out of business.
Carol Hooton

[DonR]

Marksmen also used in 1964. Interstatesmen definitely used in 1964. The only
ones our corps in Pennsylvania could find then were Whaley's, and even
though we were a U.S. corps, we used Whaley's for our entire horn line
starting in 1964 (Twin City Imperials).

Post by Carol Hooton
OK - Let's have at it. Can we reach a definitive agreement? Received an
email today from Dominick DelRa's Brother-in-law. He said Dom designed the
mellophone after the 1963 season. He couldn't convince any of the musical
instrument manufacturers in the US to make the horn, so Whaley, Royce in
Toronto machined the first mellophones. The Interstatesmen, where Dom was
music director, began to practice with the horn during the fall/winter of
1963/1964. Now, somewhere in my memory there is also something about the
Toronto Optimists having one of the original mellophones too. Can't
remember if Dom was also teaching them or just what the details are. Any
help, debate, corrections, are appreciated. Attempted to contact Whaley,
Royce, but they are out of business.
Carol Hooton

[LEG at cba]

Post by DonR
Marksmen also used in 1964. Interstatesmen definitely used in 1964.

Absolutely correct. Also, I think one of the first guys to play on an I-men
mello was Al Richards. The last I knew Al was still active with Cabs Alumni,
but plays soprano now.

Larry "G"

[NanciD]

Post by LEG at cba

Post by DonR
Marksmen also used in 1964. Interstatesmen definitely used in 1964.

Absolutely correct. Also, I think one of the first guys to play on an I-men
mello was Al Richards. The last I knew Al was still active with Cabs Alumni,
but plays soprano now.
Larry "G"

You got it Larry!
--
NanciD

Diceman Radio: 24/7 Old Time Drum Corps
Dialup:
http://www.live365.com/stations/diceman719
Broadband:
http://www.live365.com/stations/diceman719h

Senior Corps History site:
http://www.SrCorps.com

[r***@comcast.net]

St. Georges Olympians used one (1) mello in 64. I think that the
Pittsfield (Boy's Club) Cavaliers, also taught by Del Ra, mave have had
them also that year. Hard to remember it's been a long time.

[sarnia sam]

I'm working on an answer. First word is that Optimists had one mellophone in
64. Still waiting for a 'for sure' answer.

Regards,
John

Post by Carol Hooton
OK - Let's have at it. Can we reach a definitive agreement? Received an
email today from Dominick DelRa's Brother-in-law. He said Dom designed
the mellophone after the 1963 season. He couldn't convince any of the
musical instrument manufacturers in the US to make the horn, so Whaley,
Royce in Toronto machined the first mellophones. The Interstatesmen,
where Dom was music director, began to practice with the horn during the
fall/winter of 1963/1964. Now, somewhere in my memory there is also
something about the Toronto Optimists having one of the original
mellophones too. Can't remember if Dom was also teaching them or just
what the details are. Any help, debate, corrections, are appreciated.
Attempted to contact Whaley, Royce, but they are out of business.
Carol Hooton

[Dave B.]

Post by Carol Hooton
OK - Let's have at it. Can we reach a definitive agreement? Received an
email today from Dominick DelRa's Brother-in-law. He said Dom designed the
mellophone after the 1963 season. He couldn't convince any of the musical
instrument manufacturers in the US to make the horn, so Whaley, Royce in
Toronto machined the first mellophones. The Interstatesmen, where Dom was
music director, began to practice with the horn during the fall/winter of
1963/1964. Now, somewhere in my memory there is also something about the
Toronto Optimists having one of the original mellophones too. Can't
remember if Dom was also teaching them or just what the details are. Any
help, debate, corrections, are appreciated. Attempted to contact Whaley,
Royce, but they are out of business.
Carol Hooton

I think that the Stan Kenton orchestra 's use of mellophones got D&BC's
collective attention. - West Side Story, Adventures in Jazz, Neophonic
Orchestra, etc.

I first heard D&BC mellophones in 1964 VFW (or was it Legion?) (Cleveland,
OH) championships. I think a corps named "Tri-Community Cavaliers???" were
using them.

In 1965 the Des Plaines Vanguard used three Whaley Royce mellophones. No
rotary valves...slides. They used them up through 1969 or 1970.

[Melodious Thunk]

Post by Dave B.

Post by Carol Hooton
OK - Let's have at it. Can we reach a definitive agreement? Received an
email today from Dominick DelRa's Brother-in-law. He said Dom designed

the

Post by Carol Hooton
mellophone after the 1963 season. He couldn't convince any of the musical
instrument manufacturers in the US to make the horn, so Whaley, Royce in
Toronto machined the first mellophones. The Interstatesmen, where Dom was
music director, began to practice with the horn during the fall/winter of
1963/1964. Now, somewhere in my memory there is also something about the
Toronto Optimists having one of the original mellophones too. Can't
remember if Dom was also teaching them or just what the details are. Any
help, debate, corrections, are appreciated. Attempted to contact Whaley,
Royce, but they are out of business.
Carol Hooton

I think that the Stan Kenton orchestra 's use of mellophones got D&BC's
collective attention. - West Side Story, Adventures in Jazz, Neophonic
Orchestra, etc.

Trivia: Kenton's band used heavily-modified (cough, cough, *hacksaw*, cough) mellophoniums. The
mellophonium is a band instrument dating back at least to the 1950's.

Here's a nice page about Kenton's mellophoniums:

http://home.comcast.net/~noel_wedder/wsb/mellophonium.htm

This page is a pretty good brief history of the mellophonium:

http://home.earthlink.net/~mellophone/bellfront.html

The mellophone bugle, whatever the debate about it is, *used* to play nothing like the Conn
marching mellophoniums. When I marched, the mellophone bugle eventually grew to be my favorite
bugle voice. Hats off to the creator of the mellophone bugle, Dominick & his brother-in-law!

I haven't played them to be sure, but from looks alone, most marching mellophones today (bugles
or band instruments) owe at least as much to the Whaley-Royce and Olds (and other) mellophone
bugles as they do to the original Conn mellophoniums.

Post by Dave B.
I first heard D&BC mellophones in 1964 VFW (or was it Legion?) (Cleveland,
OH) championships. I think a corps named "Tri-Community Cavaliers???" were
using them.
In 1965 the Des Plaines Vanguard used three Whaley Royce mellophones. No
rotary valves...slides. They used them up through 1969 or 1970.

[Big Rich Soprano]

Post by Melodious Thunk
Trivia: Kenton's band used heavily-modified (cough, cough, *hacksaw*, cough)

Tell us what you're really trying to say here... lol...

[n***@unisys.com]

Post by Carol Hooton
OK - Let's have at it. Can we reach a definitive agreement?

Received an

Post by Carol Hooton
email today from Dominick DelRa's Brother-in-law. He said Dom

designed the

Post by Carol Hooton
mellophone after the 1963 season. He couldn't convince any of the musical
instrument manufacturers in the US to make the horn, so Whaley, Royce in
Toronto machined the first mellophones. The Interstatesmen, where Dom was
music director, began to practice with the horn during the

fall/winter of

Post by Carol Hooton
1963/1964. Now, somewhere in my memory there is also something about the
Toronto Optimists having one of the original mellophones too. Can't
remember if Dom was also teaching them or just what the details are.

Any

Post by Carol Hooton
help, debate, corrections, are appreciated. Attempted to contact Whaley,
Royce, but they are out of business.
Carol Hooton

OK, contraversy be thy name. The "mellophone", in my humble
(maybe)opinion was invented solely because it was too difficult to get
real french horn players..Also IMHO the mellophone is nothing more than
an overgrown tenor horn (read 2nd soprano)allowing corps to take the
easy way out. If you want a real mid range instrument, put the french
horn back in drum corps and recruit the players who can handle them.
Yes, they were tough, but if you had the chops it could be done. It's
late tonight, forgive me. French horns rule.
Ken Newman

[Tom & Karen Peashey]

for the record... and speaking as a true French Hornist who was one of the
original Mellophones in drum corps...

I can equivocally tell you that you are wrong... we had MANY great French
Horn players ---

The mellophone was invented.... because.... and in this order.... (and
this comes from the horses mouth - Dominic Del Ra)

1. French Horns were garnering too high a percentage of the ticks while
marching... the embroucher was too hard to maintain... we needed middle
voice with some cushion that would allow marching without ticking as much...
The new instrument could achieve an excellent sound with a trumpet
cushion... ticks were immediately reduced...

2. LOUD is good... the new instrument was much louder...

3. Goes along with #2 - the new sound was quite "brilliant" and worked
remarkably well outdoors...

it was those three things.... nothing more

French Horns DO rule, but the mellophone was a good idea at the time... if
it weren't for the tick system, the change may NEVER have occurred... it
only happened when the staff began evaluating where they were getting ticked
the hardest... On today's sheets, they may have never come to that
conclusion.

Tom Peashey

Post by n***@unisys.com
OK, contraversy be thy name. The "mellophone", in my humble
(maybe)opinion was invented solely because it was too difficult to get
real french horn players..Also IMHO the mellophone is nothing more than
an overgrown tenor horn (read 2nd soprano)allowing corps to take the
easy way out. If you want a real mid range instrument, put the french
horn back in drum corps and recruit the players who can handle them.
Yes, they were tough, but if you had the chops it could be done. It's
late tonight, forgive me. French horns rule.
Ken Newman

[m***@verizon.net]

I AGREE with Tom completely. Back in the day.....the Thunderbirds had
six terrific french horn players. One of the best, Dan Varndell, was a
bari sax player. No, that didn't necessarily make him a great FRENCHIE.
What did?.....He has NO LIPS!!!!! No offense intended.

[LEG at cba]

There WERE many great frenchie players. There still ARE some great frenchie
players.

While those original WR mellos were a challenge, so were some of the french
horns on the market - especially in the upper register. When the Olds Ultratone
mello came out, it was a blessing, as was the Olds BU-10. The only frenchies
that were better were the Conn and possibly the Getzen Deluxe "Concert Model"
with the paper-thin bell.

I'm guessing that many corps used a mix of mellos and frenchies to bridge the
tembre gap between the soprano voice and the baritones - mellos on the top line
and frenchies on the others. Otherwise, why would King, DEG and Kanstul tooled
for them?

As for the mouthpiece arguement, there are some mouthpieces available that have
good size cushion rims. And if that isn't enough, Jerry Callet (and probably
others) turned out custom pieces having a trumpet cushion rim, somewhat deep
cup with a french horn shank and backbore. I was using a Bach 5BW for quite
awhile and recently changed to a Rudy Muck (forget the number) because I'm
doubling on mellophone and the cushion on the Muck is more comfortable when
compared with a trumpet mouthpiece.

What I will NEVER understand is why people play mellophones with a frenchie
mouthpiece chucked in an adapter. The only plausible explaination is they are
less apt to "frack" on the mello - which can be easily solved by practicing
more on a frenchie.

I know, TMI.

Larry "G"

[Alan Mundy]

Post by LEG at cba
There WERE many great frenchie players. There still ARE some great
frenchie players.
While those original WR mellos were a challenge, so were some of the
french horns on the market - especially in the upper register. When
the Olds Ultratone mello came out, it was a blessing, as was the Olds
BU-10. The only frenchies that were better were the Conn and possibly
the Getzen Deluxe "Concert Model" with the paper-thin bell.
I'm guessing that many corps used a mix of mellos and frenchies to
bridge the tembre gap between the soprano voice and the baritones -
mellos on the top line and frenchies on the others. Otherwise, why
would King, DEG and Kanstul tooled for them?
As for the mouthpiece arguement, there are some mouthpieces available
that have good size cushion rims. And if that isn't enough, Jerry
Callet (and probably others) turned out custom pieces having a trumpet
cushion rim, somewhat deep cup with a french horn shank and backbore.
I was using a Bach 5BW for quite awhile and recently changed to a Rudy
Muck (forget the number) because I'm doubling on mellophone and the
cushion on the Muck is more comfortable when compared with a trumpet
mouthpiece.
What I will NEVER understand is why people play mellophones with a
frenchie mouthpiece chucked in an adapter. The only plausible
explaination is they are less apt to "frack" on the mello - which can
be easily solved by practicing more on a frenchie.

The theory is that it keeps your concert horn embochure intact through the
marching season.

--
Alan Mundy

[Catherine]

Post by Alan Mundy

Post by LEG at cba
There WERE many great frenchie players. There still ARE some great
frenchie players.
While those original WR mellos were a challenge, so were some of the
french horns on the market - especially in the upper register.

Yes. That's why it's amazing that in pre-mellophone days, french horn playas covered
all the middle parts - and didn't whine about upper registers.

That was also at a full mark-time, and sometimes 5 to 5 step sizes.

Also with "only" single valve horns and/or slip-slides.

Post by Alan Mundy

Post by LEG at cba
When the Olds Ultratone mello came out, it was a
blessing, as was the Olds BU-10.

They are good horns. Too bad that the "drivers" got increasingly wussy and blando.

<snip>

Post by Alan Mundy

Post by LEG at cba
I'm guessing that many corps used a mix of mellos and
frenchies to bridge the tembre gap between the soprano
voice and the baritones - mellos on the top line and
frenchies on the others.

As above, french horns used to cover all the middle voices. The MScouts did it in
1977 quite well, too.

The reason for a mellophone ought to have been the tone color. But the massive
elimination of the french horn reflects the disrespect on the merits towards tone
color in drum & bugle corps - in addition to the gutting of the unique sound which is
the inherent meaning of a BUGLE line.

<snip>

Post by Alan Mundy

Post by LEG at cba
What I will NEVER understand is why people play mellophones with a
frenchie mouthpiece chucked in an adapter. The only plausible
explaination is they are less apt to "frack" on the mello - which can
be easily solved by practicing more on a frenchie.

The theory is that it keeps your concert horn embochure intact through the
marching season.

Only for blando mediocrities, who appear to need all the crutches they can get. Such
people would do better to be taught strength and flexibility. But then, we would
need horn instructors with balls who know how to do that, and care to do it for the
benefit of the members and the genre - rather than simply preparing their "product".

-- Catherine

Post by Alan Mundy
--
Alan Mundy

[Alan Mundy]

"Catherine" <***@yahoo!!!.com> wrote in news:JzVMd.1292$***@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com:

<snip>

Post by Catherine

Post by Alan Mundy

Post by LEG at cba
What I will NEVER understand is why people play mellophones with a
frenchie mouthpiece chucked in an adapter. The only plausible
explaination is they are less apt to "frack" on the mello - which
can be easily solved by practicing more on a frenchie.

The theory is that it keeps your concert horn embochure intact
through the marching season.

Only for blando mediocrities, who appear to need all the crutches they
can get. Such people would do better to be taught strength and
flexibility. But then, we would need horn instructors with balls who
know how to do that, and care to do it for the benefit of the members
and the genre - rather than simply preparing their "product".

Since no corps that I know of currently allows(and *very* few have ever
done so) mello players to use horn pieces with adaptors, I'd say most horn
instructors must meet your testicular standards.

--
Alan Mundy

[LEG at cba]

Post by Alan Mundy

Post by LEG at cba
What I will NEVER understand is why people play mellophones with a
frenchie mouthpiece chucked in an adapter. The only plausible
explaination is they are less apt to "frack" on the mello - which
can be easily solved by practicing more on a frenchie.

The theory is that it keeps your concert horn embochure intact
through the marching season.

If that is the case, then the band directors should get a good horn shop to put
a "kick" in the FH lead pipe (ie what Kanstul did on the G frenchie bugle) so
the embochure will not be affected. Playing ANY bell-front horn with a straight
lead pipe and mouthpiece receiver will impact a traditional french hornists'
embochure.


Larry "G"

[Alan Mundy]

Post by LEG at cba

Post by Alan Mundy

Post by LEG at cba
What I will NEVER understand is why people play mellophones with
a frenchie mouthpiece chucked in an adapter. The only plausible
explaination is they are less apt to "frack" on the mello - which
can be easily solved by practicing more on a frenchie.

The theory is that it keeps your concert horn embochure intact
through the marching season.

If that is the case, then the band directors should get a good horn
shop to put a "kick" in the FH lead pipe (ie what Kanstul did on the G
frenchie bugle) so the embochure will not be affected. Playing ANY
bell-front horn with a straight lead pipe and mouthpiece receiver will
impact a traditional french hornists' embochure.

Or perhaps it's simply time to admit that the french horn is an instrument
fundamentally unsuited to drum corps and marching band?

I don't deny that many individuals and corps *have* made them work and work
incredibly well, but at some point(especially in a highly competitive
environment) you have to ask if the effort involved is worth it.

--
Alan Mundy

[Melodious Thunk]

In article <***@130.133.1.18>,
Alan Mundy <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Alan Mundy
Or perhaps it's simply time to admit that the french horn is an instrument
fundamentally unsuited to drum corps and marching band?

As opposed to the vibraphone?

[Alan Mundy]

Post by Catherine
<snip>

Post by Alan Mundy
Or perhaps it's simply time to admit that the french horn is an
instrument fundamentally unsuited to drum corps and marching band?

As opposed to the vibraphone?

Assuming you write the parts to be played with the motor off, there's
nothing about the instrument itself that is fundamentally unsuited to drum
corps.

Expense and logistics are another story.

--
Alan Mundy

[Melodious Thunk]

Post by Alan Mundy

Post by Catherine
<snip>

Post by Alan Mundy
Or perhaps it's simply time to admit that the french horn is an
instrument fundamentally unsuited to drum corps and marching band?

As opposed to the vibraphone?

Assuming you write the parts to be played with the motor off, there's
nothing about the instrument itself that is fundamentally unsuited to drum
corps.

The vibraphone is not a signalling weapon, and is an extremely poor choice for use outdoors.

The french horn bugle, on the other hand, is damned hard to miss from even a half-mile away.

Post by Alan Mundy
Expense and logistics are another story.
--
Alan Mundy

[Alan Mundy]

Post by Melodious Thunk

Post by Alan Mundy

Post by Catherine
<snip>

Post by Alan Mundy
Or perhaps it's simply time to admit that the french horn is an
instrument fundamentally unsuited to drum corps and marching band?

As opposed to the vibraphone?

Assuming you write the parts to be played with the motor off, there's
nothing about the instrument itself that is fundamentally unsuited to
drum corps.

The vibraphone is not a signalling weapon,

I admit I wasn't there to see it personally, but I'm pretty sure no
military on earth ever used a contrabass bugle as a signalling device.

Or a mellophone, or a baritone, or even (*gasp*) a french horn bugle.

In fact, the concert french horn has a far more extensive and legit
"signalling" heritage than the bugle version.

Post by Melodious Thunk
and is an extremely poor
choice for use outdoors.

There's nothing poor about it if used intelligently.

--
Alan Mundy

[Melodious Thunk]

In article <***@130.133.1.18>,
Alan Mundy <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Alan Mundy

Post by Melodious Thunk
The vibraphone is not a signalling weapon,

I admit I wasn't there to see it personally, but I'm pretty sure no
military on earth ever used a contrabass bugle as a signalling device.

I suppose then, for you, a hydrogen bomb is not a weapon, since it hasn't been employed in any
wars.

The contrabass bugle is a *bugle*. The vibraphone, without using the motor (as you suggest), is
a fairly meaningless instrument, would you agree? Now, the African instruments that the
vibraphone was patterned after... that's a different story. 'Course, they ain't drums nor bugles.

[Alan Mundy]

Post by Catherine
<snip>

Post by Alan Mundy

Post by Melodious Thunk
The vibraphone is not a signalling weapon,

I admit I wasn't there to see it personally, but I'm pretty sure no
military on earth ever used a contrabass bugle as a signalling device.

I suppose then, for you, a hydrogen bomb is not a weapon, since it
hasn't been employed in any wars.
The contrabass bugle is a *bugle*.

In the drum corps sense.

The drum corps bugle and the military bugle stopped being more than
tangentially related when devices to change the key were added and
additional variants were created to complete the choir.

Get real...a Patriot missle can trace it's roots to a wooden spear with a
stone tip.

That doesn't mean the two are related in any practical or meaningful way.

The vibraphone, without using the

Post by Catherine
motor (as you suggest), is a fairly meaningless instrument, would you
agree?

It's of limited use.

Probly why their use is limited in drum corps.

In many corps I suspect they're used simply because the corps has one and
you want as many mallet players as possible.

In the top corps where money is no object, vibes are used far more
selectively and with its particular sound in mind.

--
Alan Mundy

[Melodious Thunk]

In article <***@130.133.1.18>,
Alan Mundy <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Alan Mundy
In fact, the concert french horn has a far more extensive and legit
"signalling" heritage than the bugle version.

You don't know what you're talking about here, do you?
The pertinent term was "weapon," not "signalling."

[Alan Mundy]

Post by Catherine
<snip>

Post by Alan Mundy
In fact, the concert french horn has a far more extensive and legit
"signalling" heritage than the bugle version.

You don't know what you're talking about here, do you?
The pertinent term was "weapon," not "signalling."

The French Horn Bugle has zero history of being used as a signalling
weapon.

HTH.

--
Alan Mundy

[Catherine]

Post by Catherine
<snip>

Post by Alan Mundy
In fact, the concert french horn has a far more extensive
and legit "signalling" heritage than the bugle version.

Only if one doesn't more closely define your terms - and the blando manipulations
thereof.

First off, let's further clarify "concert french horn". Do you mean the double,
triple and quadruple pretzels which are currently used in most concert/sympohnic
bands and orchestras? I highly doubt that ANY of those horns have blown any walls
back, since such is not generally accepted as a musical virtue in concert/symphonic
bands - and definitely not in any orchestras. That's one reason why in the latter,
FH bells face back towards the percussionist, generally.

Next, let's take the original instrument as most people think of it, if that's what
you mean by "concert french horn" - a long coiled bit o' tubing that can be sounded
with one hand. Yanno, a STRAIGHT BUGLE that just doesn't happen to be bell-front.
Thus, a BUGLE VERSION - and there are coiled Whaley-Royces which duplicated the round
pretzel look, as were the first stubbies a attempted pretzel wannabe.

For you to say ANY band instrument has a far more extensive heritage as a signalling
instrument than bugles is just plain stupid. Shofars, viking horns and other such
instruments, perhaps. But a concert anything? Puh - leeze....

Then we have the "legit" argument. Speaking of "legit" - particularly on what is
alleged to be a drum & bugle corps newsgroup - you must be dismissing decades of
American drum & bugle corps hornlines in order to make any such claim.

Blando.

Post by Catherine
You don't know what you're talking about here, do you?

Obviously not.

Post by Catherine
The pertinent term was "weapon," not "signalling."

That too... Either way, Mundy sucks.

-- Catherine

[Jack Gillen]

Of course it's no surprise that Nutella would go on a nut rant when she
clearly has no idea what she's talking about. She's never been one to let
facts get in the way of her egomania. But the fact is this: the horn
("French horn," in the vernacular) is a direct descendant of the natural
horn ("hunting horn"), which appeared on the scene before the bugle (in any
voice, faux "French horn" or otherwise) was ever used as a signaling horn.
Hence, Alan Mundy's statement, "in fact, the concert french horn has a far
more extensive and legit 'signalling' heritage than the bugle version [of
the French horn]," is accurate. But Catherine, don't let this stop you from
babbling incoherently about how it isn't true, and it's just EVERYONE's
fraudulent blando predatory enabling of blah blah blah.....

Peace,
Jack
--
"If you understood everything I say, you'd be me!" --- Miles Davis

Post by Catherine

Post by Catherine
<snip>

Only if one doesn't more closely define your terms - and the blando manipulations
thereof.
First off, let's further clarify "concert french horn". Do you mean the double,
triple and quadruple pretzels which are currently used in most
concert/sympohnic
bands and orchestras? I highly doubt that ANY of those horns have blown any walls
back, since such is not generally accepted as a musical virtue in concert/symphonic
bands - and definitely not in any orchestras. That's one reason why in the latter,
FH bells face back towards the percussionist, generally.
Next, let's take the original instrument as most people think of it, if that's what
you mean by "concert french horn" - a long coiled bit o' tubing that can be sounded
with one hand. Yanno, a STRAIGHT BUGLE that just doesn't happen to be bell-front.
Thus, a BUGLE VERSION - and there are coiled Whaley-Royces which duplicated the round
pretzel look, as were the first stubbies a attempted pretzel wannabe.
For you to say ANY band instrument has a far more extensive heritage as a signalling
instrument than bugles is just plain stupid. Shofars, viking horns and other such
instruments, perhaps. But a concert anything? Puh - leeze....
Then we have the "legit" argument. Speaking of "legit" - particularly on what is
alleged to be a drum & bugle corps newsgroup - you must be dismissing decades of
American drum & bugle corps hornlines in order to make any such claim.
Blando.

Post by Catherine
You don't know what you're talking about here, do you?

Obviously not.

Post by Catherine
The pertinent term was "weapon," not "signalling."

That too... Either way, Mundy sucks.
-- Catherine

[LEG at cba]

Post by Melodious Thunk

Post by Alan Mundy
Or perhaps it's simply time to admit that the french horn is an instrument
fundamentally unsuited to drum corps and marching band?

As opposed to the vibraphone?

LMAO!

[Catherine]

Post by Catherine
<snip>

Post by Catherine

Post by Alan Mundy

Post by LEG at cba
What I will NEVER understand is why people play mellophones with a
frenchie mouthpiece chucked in an adapter. The only plausible
explaination is they are less apt to "frack" on the mello - which
can be easily solved by practicing more on a frenchie.

The theory is that it keeps your concert horn embochure intact
through the marching season.

Only for blando mediocrities, who appear to need all the crutches they
can get. Such people would do better to be taught strength and
flexibility. But then, we would need horn instructors with balls who
know how to do that, and care to do it for the benefit of the members
and the genre - rather than simply preparing their "product".

Since no corps that I know of currently allows(and *very*
few have ever done so) mello players to use horn pieces with
adaptors, I'd say most horn
instructors must meet your testicular standards.
--
Alan Mundy

Don't ever attempt to speak for my standards and what does and doesn't meet them.

My point - which you have missed and gone elsewhere on, which is your perogative and
mine to correct - is the need for blandos to pamper their embouchure and not confuse
their delicate sensibilities.

I could give a shit about who uses what mouthpiece, let alone adapters.

And no, no DCIA blando group I've heard meets my testicular standards. One is lucky
(well, not lucky...) to hear them outside the stadium, let alone from blocks away as
drum corps bugle lines used to be heard, as they should be.

It's like ANY tape or mechanical device without an amplifier being able to
approximate a bugler sounding taps. The entire idea of the term BUGLE CALL is to
sound across the countryside.

LOUD is more than advertising. With a drum & bugle corps, it's a reality - not
merely an empty hype. And no mouthpiece and/or adapter - or blando - should get in
the way of that.

-- Catherine

[Alan Mundy]

Post by Catherine

Post by Catherine
<snip>

Post by Catherine

Post by Alan Mundy

Post by LEG at cba
What I will NEVER understand is why people play mellophones with
a frenchie mouthpiece chucked in an adapter. The only plausible
explaination is they are less apt to "frack" on the mello -
which can be easily solved by practicing more on a frenchie.

The theory is that it keeps your concert horn embochure intact
through the marching season.

Only for blando mediocrities, who appear to need all the crutches
they can get. Such people would do better to be taught strength
and flexibility. But then, we would need horn instructors with
balls who know how to do that, and care to do it for the benefit of
the members and the genre - rather than simply preparing their
"product".

Since no corps that I know of currently allows(and *very*
few have ever done so) mello players to use horn pieces with
adaptors, I'd say most horn
instructors must meet your testicular standards.
--
Alan Mundy

Don't ever attempt to speak for my standards and what does and doesn't meet them.
My point - which you have missed and gone elsewhere on, which is your
perogative and mine to correct - is the need for blandos to pamper
their embouchure and not confuse their delicate sensibilities.
I could give a shit about who uses what mouthpiece, let alone
adapters.
And no, no DCIA blando group I've heard meets my testicular standards.
One is lucky (well, not lucky...) to hear them outside the stadium,
let alone from blocks away as drum corps bugle lines used to be heard,
as they should be.
It's like ANY tape or mechanical device without an amplifier being
able to approximate a bugler sounding taps. The entire idea of the
term BUGLE CALL is to sound across the countryside.
LOUD is more than advertising. With a drum & bugle corps, it's a
reality - not merely an empty hype. And no mouthpiece and/or adapter
- or blando - should get in the way of that.

Hope you had a good weekend, Catherine.

--
Alan Mundy

[r***@comcast.net]

The "mellophone", in my humble
(maybe)opinion was invented solely because it was too difficult to get
real french horn players.

Wrong on both counts. The mellophone was invented to add an additional
voice to the horn lines of the mid 60's. There were some great French
horn sections and players during that era. Skyliners & St. Kevins being
the best in my opinion.

[n***@unisys.com]

I guess that is why this thread is titled "Mellophone Debate"
We all have our own opinions about the origin of this beast.
Yes, there were, and still are, many terrific horn players out there.
So stop making excuses as to why they can't play them.
As for who had the best players in the era to which you are referring,
that too is totally subjective. I could very well, just as easily, tell
you that Archie and Reilly had the best lines and someone else would
list their own favorites
Bring back the true mid range voice. Another opinion, just about any
soprano/trumpet player can play the beast and that is why IMHO it
exists
I'm done
Ken

Post by n***@unisys.com
The "mellophone", in my humble
(maybe)opinion was invented solely because it was too difficult to get
real french horn players.
Wrong on both counts. The mellophone was invented to add an

additional

Post by n***@unisys.com
voice to the horn lines of the mid 60's. There were some great French
horn sections and players during that era. Skyliners & St. Kevins being
the best in my opinion.

[Jack Gillen]

Ron Lutterbie is a musician who plays, among other things, the E flat alto
horn in the Cincinnati Brass Band. He maintains a site devoted to the middle
range horns here:

http://www.angelfire.com/oh/EbAltoTenorFhorn/

The page dealing with the horn we call the mellophone (which, as Ron
instructs us, is more properly called the mellophonium) is here:

http://www.angelfire.com/oh/EbAltoTenorFhorn/mellophonium.html

And I've already answered his question about how to play an A flat on the
drum corps piston-rotor mellophone, but I'm sure he'd appreciate anything
you might have to say as well, so drop him a line if you like.

Peace,
Jack
--
"If you understood everything I say, you'd be me!" --- Miles Davis

Post by n***@unisys.com
The "mellophone", in my humble
(maybe)opinion was invented solely because it was too difficult to get
real french horn players.
Wrong on both counts. The mellophone was invented to add an additional
voice to the horn lines of the mid 60's. There were some great French
horn sections and players during that era. Skyliners & St. Kevins being
the best in my opinion.

[LEG at cba]

Post by Jack Gillen
Ron Lutterbie is a musician who plays, among other things, the E flat alto
horn in the Cincinnati Brass Band. He maintains a site devoted to the middle

Thanks for the link!

Larry "G"

[LEG at cba]

Nothing beats a french horn "rip".

Gotta go rip thru Havah now.

Larry "G"